How Can We Justify the Slaughter of Jericho? Chat Transcript 10/27/98

How Can We Justify the Slaughter of Jericho?
Chat Transcript 10/27/98

This chat was conducted on Tuesday evening, October 27, 1998 as an adjunct our ongoing e-mail Bible study on the Book of Joshua, and involved 10 or 12 participants. It pre-supposes that participants have read Dr. Wilson's essay entitled "Why the Slaughter of Jericho? Devoted to Destruction - Herem," and uses that essay's outline as a structure. The purpose of this chat is to help people work through difficult issues through real-time discussion.

As you read this chat, start at the very bottom of the page and scroll up so you can read the discussion in order.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:22 pm MST
Carey, no more of these chats are planned, unless a "hot" issue comes up.

Diane Wooley, Cedar Park, TX , 10/27/98 7:21 pm MST
Amen.. thanks everyone, it was very informative!

CE , 10/27/98 7:21 pm MST
Pastor Ralph, thanks so much for leading this Bible study!! I enjoyed it so very much. When are you having another one??

Dorothy Brant, Langhorne, PA , 10/27/98 7:21 pm MST
Thank you Lord for this bible study and bless all these good people !

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:21 pm MST
Daniel, tell us about your ministry there in Singapore.

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 7:21 pm MST
Carey, Do you go to Northwestern?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:20 pm MST
Amen.

Well, we're pretty much done for tonight. Feel free to stick around and chat, if you like. You can use Room B also which you can enter by the "lobby".

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 7:19 pm MST
I should say 'keep up the spark in all of us'

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 7:19 pm MST
Lord, let us be "on fire" for you in this vast world of lost people.

CE , 10/27/98 7:19 pm MST
Lord, thanks so much for this time to "fellowship" and study with people who love You, whom I have never even met.

Diane Wooley, Cedar Park, TX , 10/27/98 7:19 pm MST
Diane Wooley, Cedar Park, TX entered the room
Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:18 pm MST
Give us sensitive ears to hear Your voice and recognize Your direction.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:18 pm MST
Yes, Lord, keep that spark in me, too.

CE , 10/27/98 7:18 pm MST
Yes, Lord, may we totally dedicate to You our entire selves.

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 7:17 pm MST
Lord Jesus I pray that the Holy Spirit will keep up the spark in me to reach the 'lost' and bring them into Your Kingdom. Amen

Cynthia Ephland, Redding, CA , 10/27/98 7:17 pm MST
Cynthia Ephland, Redding, CA logged off.
Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 7:17 pm MST
Father, I thank you for this Bible study and opening our eyes to your word. Help us to obey and to do your will. Help us to constantly be seeking your will in all things.

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 7:17 pm MST
Lord,

Please help us to understand today which battles to fight and to know those things or times that should be herem that we might honor you and not desecrate them.

CE , 10/27/98 7:16 pm MST
Lord, give us a heart for the lost.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:16 pm MST
Father, , often I try to crawl off the altar. Help me to fully consecrate my entire being to You, and see more clearly my friends and neighbours through Your eyes.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:15 pm MST
Our Father. Help us to be willing to obey you when you ask of us the hard things. And help us to love the lost like you do.

CE , 10/27/98 7:15 pm MST
Father, I praise You for Your amazing plans for all of history and that we can rest in Your sovereignty!

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:14 pm MST
Most Christians think it would be easier to know His will if He DID use words.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:14 pm MST
If there are not further issues we need to discuss, let's pray. Each one that wants to pray a sentence or two about this topic we've been studying -- and the lost!

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 7:13 pm MST
It seems so strange to say but in the movie Hoffa folks would get mad at each other and say "Hey you talking to me with words"?

God certainly is not limited to words

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:12 pm MST
Now we've talked around this issue. Is there something someone wants to ask that's been bothering you? Don't be afraid to. We won't bite. We all want to learn together.

CE , 10/27/98 7:12 pm MST
Very good point! Regardless of our position about those who have never heard, we must have a deep burden to go and reach them with the Gospel.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:12 pm MST
God is the only one who can see the motives and desires of the heart. He decides who has salvation. My understanding is they are judged according to the understanding they received, and God determines on that basis, I cannot. However, if dying without hearing the Gospel is a pass to heaven, then we do people a disservice by sharing the Gospel via missionaries etc.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:11 pm MST
True, all are without excuse. None is righteous. No, not one.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:11 pm MST
Nor must we allow the outside hope for the salvation of some "seeking heathen" keep us from a missionary fervor to reach the lost with the Good News of Jesus.

CE , 10/27/98 7:11 pm MST
Exactly, we can rest in God's desicions.

Cynthia Ephland, Redding, CA , 10/27/98 7:11 pm MST
Cynthia Ephland, Redding, CA entered the room
CE , 10/27/98 7:10 pm MST
I think we must remember Romans 1, though, that all men are without excuse.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:10 pm MST
I don't think we know the answer to this question. We believe that God is just, and that he is merciful and gracious. We must leave judgment in his hands, and not call his judgement too harsh. That's like the rebellious students in a classroom criticising the teacher's struct discipline. They just don't know....

CE , 10/27/98 7:10 pm MST
The issue of what about people who have never heard the Gospel is extremely interesting.

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 7:09 pm MST
I have not been able to completely nail that hide to the wall. I cannot say that there will be no salvation to those who leave this life without Christ. I can however nail to the wall how void of understanding someone is who choses to live this life without accepting God's gift.

CE , 10/27/98 7:09 pm MST
God saved Rahab from being totally destroyed with her city because of her repentance and belief, but no one besides her family was saved, so probably none of the other Jericho-ites will be in Heaven.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:08 pm MST
Is there room in Romans for the seeking heathen saved (unbeknownst to him) by the grace of God?
Romans 2:12-16
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [14] (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, [15] since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) [16] This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Hi Cynthia from Redding, up the road from me.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:08 pm MST
Is there room in Romans for the seeking heathen saved (unbeknownst to him) by the grace of God?
Romans 2:12-16
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. [14] (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, [15] since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) [16] This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:08 pm MST
Of course thr Truth is there, I just meant it is more easily seen in context. Of course, I am a student by nature and love to dig and research, so I may be a bit biased.

Cynthia Ephland, Redding, CA , 10/27/98 7:08 pm MST
Cynthia Ephland, Redding, CA entered the room
Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:06 pm MST
Carey. You're right. We must be VERY careful not to toss the truth out with the cultural trappings.

CE , 10/27/98 7:06 pm MST
There is no hope for conversion or salvation after a person's death, if they have not already been "saved" here on earth.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:06 pm MST
Very true. The ultimate punishment is hell, but to die in sin leads to that end. Often though we look on death as the worst that can happen to us and it is not.

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 7:05 pm MST
Indeed for me I look forward to death to this life and try on a daily basis to give up more of this world and seek more of his Kingdom.

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 7:05 pm MST
I agree that cultures separated by time and space make it difficult for one to understand another; but are there not any principles that cut across all cultures in time and space?

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 7:05 pm MST
I agree that cultures separated by time and space make it difficult for one to understand another; but are there not any principles that cut across all cultures in time and space?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:05 pm MST
So when an inhabitant from Rahab's Jericho "stands before St. Peter," how does he/she answer the question, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" Is there any hope for Jericho-ites? or Noah's neighbors? Or ours?

CE , 10/27/98 7:05 pm MST
But we must beware when we say that certain passages do not apply to us today, but were only "cultural". I think of women's roles in the church.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:04 pm MST
We run into problems any time we try to place different cultures and times side by side. Even other things of scripture are more easily understood if we examine the time and culture of the time it was written.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:03 pm MST

Last point:
5. Death is not the ultimate punishment.

CE , 10/27/98 7:03 pm MST
King Ahab rebuilt Jericho (see I Kings 16:34) and his sons died, according to the curse.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:03 pm MST
Last call for point #4. Any takers?

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 7:02 pm MST
Was Jericho destroyed more than once? Why do we sing we are on the Jericho road?

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:01 pm MST
There are times when it is a waste of time to throw truth at a hard heart, so I maintain prayer for them, but focus my time and energy on hearts prepared for the message

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 7:01 pm MST
I guess God is sovereign and He alone is the Judge, that's why I am never disheartened but persever. Thanks Pastor Ralph

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:01 pm MST
Okay, let's talk about the point #4 of comparing cultures with one another. Can 20th Century citizens judge Joshua's actions? Not by our own practices and laws!

CE , 10/27/98 7:00 pm MST
It is definitely not our place to know when a person will repent or won't. . . In Joshua's case, it was God's command to destroy. He normally does not do that today.

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 7:00 pm MST
I agree Sandra.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 7:00 pm MST
Only God knows when a eart is too hard to soften, so I generally operate under the principle-never assume its too late until God says so.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 7:00 pm MST
Daniel. Also some "fields" become ripe later, even though at times they are hard, they can be softened by the rains of God.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:59 pm MST
Daniel, how did Jesus react when he came up against hard hearts? Shook the dust off his feet and went on. Sadly...

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:59 pm MST
The world certainly does have a problem with accepting things under the "sovereignty " of God. And often believers too.

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 6:58 pm MST
sometimes when I evangelize, I came across hardened haerts and breakthrough was so difficult; but should we give up on them and let them go on to destruction?

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 6:58 pm MST
In application to our modern churches then do we determine that some should be targeted for ministry and others avoided?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:58 pm MST
Carey. Interesting idea. Maybe you're right.

NS , 10/27/98 6:57 pm MST
NS logged off.
NS , 10/27/98 6:57 pm MST
I need to leave. Thank you Pastor Ralph for this discussion. It was most illuminating.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:57 pm MST
Perhaps this point is more for us apologists. The fact is, it was kill or be killed.

CE , 10/27/98 6:57 pm MST
I think the curse helps to illustrate, as a kind of firstfruits, that the entire conquered land belongs solely to God.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:57 pm MST

Okay. We've looked at:

1. Punishment for sin.
2. Danger of Syncretism
3. God commanded their utter destruction.

Now let's look at:
4. It is unfair to judge another era by the standards of our time. Genocide was common in that era.

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 6:57 pm MST

NS , 10/27/98 6:56 pm MST
I would definitely agree. In the case of pharaoh especially we can see a hard state from the beginning

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:55 pm MST
I agree.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:55 pm MST
Carey, good point. I don't know the full significance of that. Any ideas?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:55 pm MST
Nathan, if you read the early chapters of Exodus you see both that God hardened their hearts, and that they hardened their own hearts, too. I don't think God hardens obedient hearts, but he gives over to destruction those who are rebellious (Romans 1).

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:55 pm MST
Usually when it says God Hardened their hearts, the ones involved already had hard hearts.

CE , 10/27/98 6:54 pm MST
It is also interesting that Joshua put a curse upon anyone who would try to rebuild Jericho -- and not any of the other cities.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:53 pm MST
devoted to the Lord- in total destruction, or as a living sacrifice,Rom 12. That is the decision we each face isn't it?

NS , 10/27/98 6:53 pm MST
When it says God hardened their hearts and then destroyed them, it kind of seems one-sided. It is so hard to grasp things from His perspective

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:53 pm MST
In those days, the soldiers, too, were paid from the plunder. This was an exception to that. The destruction of other cities in Canaan did not always prohibit taking plunder. Only Jericho. Perhaps as a first fruits.

NS , 10/27/98 6:52 pm MST
Yes the word herem can mean devoted unto divine service or destroy totally, prohibited

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:52 pm MST
As a pastor, I sometimes serve as an "apologist" for God's actions in the Bible. This "devoted to destruction" idea is a hard one for our culture to accept -- especially since it includes the absolute sovereignty of God.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:51 pm MST
Perhaps because this was God's punishment on Jericho and their society( for the time of their sins to be full), it would be wrong for Israel to profit from the punishment of someone else. Also, as You say, God said it was to be His, and that's reason enough.

CE , 10/27/98 6:51 pm MST
Yes, the Hebrew term refers to the irrevocable giving over of things/persons to the Lord, often by totally destroying them.

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 6:51 pm MST
In those times was it not the right of a king to receive the plunder from a battle?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:51 pm MST
Hi, Daniel. Welcome from around the world.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:50 pm MST
The concept of "devoted to the Lord" and the concept of "holy, separtated unto the Lord" are quite similar in the Old Testament.

Daniel Wong, Singapore , 10/27/98 6:50 pm MST
Daniel Wong, Singapore entered the room
Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:49 pm MST
I don't agree that "The plunder would be thought of as a sacrifice to God for the Canaanites sin." More it was God's due as King.

NS , 10/27/98 6:49 pm MST
That is a good insight and really shows how backward our views of giving are

CE , 10/27/98 6:49 pm MST
I agree about the tie to Malachi 3.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:48 pm MST
unlike Jesus, I imagine they were a most unwilling sacrifice!(smile)

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:48 pm MST
I wonder how "devoted to destruction" related in Malachi 3 to taking the tithe that belonged to the Lord.

CE , 10/27/98 6:48 pm MST
Achan's experience reminds us how important it is to COMPLETELY obey God's commands.

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 6:48 pm MST
The plunder would be thought of as a sacrifice to God for the Canaanites sin.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:47 pm MST
Kind of like robbing from what was God's -- that is if someone took one of the devoted things.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:47 pm MST
When we get into Joshua 7 we see how important this "ban" was. Kind of like robbing from what was God's.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:47 pm MST
God's desire is that no one perish, but He gives us the "right" to choose. When I choose Him, I also choose to see others from His perspective so I must love the person and show them the way to a relationship with Him, but I also must hate the sin and remain separate from it.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:46 pm MST

Let's discuss the third point:

3. God commanded their utter destruction. They were "devoted to destruction" as a kind of burnt offering to the Lord, a sacrifice.

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 6:46 pm MST
God said that some of the laws conditions were there because of the hardness of our hearts. Do we harden our hearts against purity and pitch our tents towad mamon in such a way as to set up the annialation of those we do not tender God's love to?

NS , 10/27/98 6:44 pm MST
In Jonah especially, he was forced to reach out to a complete enemy. The Northern Kingdom had been allied against the Assyrians and so was a bitter rival.

CE , 10/27/98 6:44 pm MST
It amazes me that God would choose to include and use us in His plan to bring the Gospel to the world.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:44 pm MST
The need to prevent idolatry in Israel, and to form faith in the people of Israel seems like a compelling reason to remove the inhabitants of the land.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:43 pm MST
At issue is God's sovereignty - does He have the right to act this way? His will was for Israel to be His, and to live consecrated to Him. The other nations would be preventing this, so He removed them. Where they failed to obey and remove completely,they were led astray. To me, that shows the importance of that consecration in my own life.- and the dangers if I lack it.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:43 pm MST
Part of the sadness is well expressed in God's words to Jonah (4:11) "But Nineveh has more than 120,000 people who cannot tell their right hand from their left (spiritually), and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?" There is a real missionary burden, even though people fall under God's righteous punishment.

NS , 10/27/98 6:42 pm MST
We can see numerous examples of Israel falling to Canaanite religions. Under the divided monarchy we read about every king, whether he left the high places intact or destroyed them

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 6:41 pm MST
Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota entered the room
CE , 10/27/98 6:41 pm MST
The groups that Israel failed to destroy were such a hindrance to them.

NS , 10/27/98 6:41 pm MST
One interesting insight that I have discovered about this is the Assyrian empire. They were never able to completely destroy Babylon so that it was always weakening them and ultimately destroyed their empire.

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 6:41 pm MST
Hasn't the Holy Spirit always been about the task of showing man including those not in Israel the saving power of Christ to come.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:40 pm MST
Syncretism is the fusion of various belief systems.

Martha , Huntsville, Alabama , 10/27/98 6:40 pm MST
Martha , Huntsville, Alabama logged off.
CE , 10/27/98 6:40 pm MST
The amazing thing about God's mercy is that He even has it at all -- we must rest in His perfect justice.

NS , 10/27/98 6:40 pm MST
The crowdedness of Hell really serves to encourage me to reach out to people of "Canaanite" actions today

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:40 pm MST

Let's move to the second point.

2. Danger of Syncretism
"Completely destroy them -- the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites -- as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy. 20:17-18). See also Genesis 15:16; 2 Kings 21:11; Ezra 9:1; 1 Kings 11:5-7; 1 Kings 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3; 2 Kings 23:13; 2 Chronicles 36:14; Ezra 9:11; Judges 10:6.

NS , 10/27/98 6:39 pm MST
God's ultimate justice can set our minds at ease on this note. He would not do anything that would not be appropriate for us.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:39 pm MST
Part of me is very sad by the destruction of these peoples. Not their idolatry and evil ways, but their spiritual lives.

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:39 pm MST
So we can say only God can determine when a nation has reached its full measure of sin, when enough is enough and "grace" is withheld. Today man tries to annihilate othersfor personal or national gain . When enough is enough He will return- and may it be soon.

CE , 10/27/98 6:38 pm MST
God has perfect timing -- He waited to punish these peoples for their sins until the time of the conquest.

Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 6:38 pm MST
I have a hard time believing God did not give these people an opportunity(400 years) to learrn more about him and avoid his wrath. Rehab was able to do so.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:37 pm MST
Others out there, please jump in....

Martha , Huntsville, Alabama , 10/27/98 6:36 pm MST
Martha , Huntsville, Alabama entered the room
Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:36 pm MST
The passage about the "sin of the Ammorites" not being full, that God spoke to Abraham, it think is part of the key.

CE , 10/27/98 6:36 pm MST
By studying history, we can see how grossly evil these civilizations really were.

NS , 10/27/98 6:35 pm MST
This is definitely a key reason for their for total annihilation

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:35 pm MST
In Friends group I would be Sandi, so as not to be confused with sandra M. Only Godcan punish for sins, so He had the "right" to determine to wipe out Jericho etc. He never sent His people out ti destroy a people for no reason, or for their personal reasons- only His and in His timing.

Wendy Mellott, Del Norte, Colorado , 10/27/98 6:35 pm MST
Wendy Mellott, Del Norte, Colorado logged off.
Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:35 pm MST
How is the Conquest an appropriate punishment for sin.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:34 pm MST
1. Punishment for sin
Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions.... In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure..." (Genesis 15:13-14, 16).
"Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you (Leviticus 18:24-28).

Dorothy Brant, Langhorne, PA , 10/27/98 6:34 pm MST
Dorothy Brant, Langhorne, PA entered the room
NS , 10/27/98 6:34 pm MST
As to the motivator behind the battle, it was clearly God who commanded them to enact His judgment on these peoples.

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:34 pm MST
Let's look at these points one at a time. Okay?

CE , 10/27/98 6:33 pm MST
We can get some insight into God's punishment for sins by thinking of how He waited until the sin of the Amorites had reached its full measure before He destroyed them.

CE , 10/27/98 6:33 pm MST
We can get some insight into God's punishment for sins by thinking of how He waited until the sin of the Amorites had reached its full measure before He destroyed them.

NS , 10/27/98 6:33 pm MST
Though genocide was common in that era, so were gross mistreatments of women and children along with infant sacrifice. We would not classify these as right at any time

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:32 pm MST
Nathan, what do you mean by the motivator behind the battle? Who do you think it is?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:32 pm MST
I think that the answer lies along these lines:
1. Punishment for sin.
2. Danger of Syncretism
3. God commanded their utter destruction.
4. It is unfair to judge another era by the standards of our time. Genocide was common in that era.
5. Death is not the ultimate punishment.

We'll look at these one by one.

NS , 10/27/98 6:32 pm MST
The key issue here I think is who the motivator behind the battle is?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:31 pm MST
Thinking Christians need to be able to give a rational answer to this difficult question. Genocide, according to the United Nations' definition in 1948, is certain acts "committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethic, racial, or religious group, as such."

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:31 pm MST
By intellectual, I mean that its something we try to figure out logically. It is troubling also to our modern culture.

To state the question most bluntly:
If genocide is wrong in Armenia and Nazi Germany, in Rwanda and Bosnia, what makes it right in Canaan?

Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:30 pm MST
Let's pray.

Lord, we need your special help that as we talk about this subject we don't know too much about that you'd guide us. Keep us on track, help us to hear your Spirit. In Jesus' name, Amen.

Wendy Mellott, Del Norte, Colorado , 10/27/98 6:30 pm MST
Wendy Mellott, Del Norte, Colorado entered the room
Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 6:30 pm MST
Hi, I am from Mn also.

Diane Wooley, Cedar Park, TX , 10/27/98 6:30 pm MST
Hi Sandra.. I recognize your name from the FRIENDS GROUP

NS , 10/27/98 6:29 pm MST
Why do you classify it as "intellectual"?

Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada , 10/27/98 6:28 pm MST
Sandra Wiens, Kelowna, B.C. Canada entered the room
Randall Baxley, Houston, Texas , 10/27/98 6:28 pm MST
Hey there Pastor Ralph. We are very likely to get some rain soon though it is not clear yet if it will spin off form Mitch or from the front that passed you a few days ago.

Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota , 10/27/98 6:28 pm MST
Cindy Erickson, Champlin, Minnesota entered the room
Pastor Ralph, Rocklin, California , 10/27/98 6:28 pm MST
This is one of the hardest issues we come across in this book -- at least from an intellectual point of view.

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