Chat Session on Rahab's Lie -- Joyful Heart Ministries

Chat Session on Rahab's Lie
September 28,1998
6:30-7:30 pm MDT

Question

During World War II some families in Holland hid Jews in their homes to save them from the Nazis. If a Nazi soldier came to the door and asked, "Are you harboring Jews in this house?" what should they say? Is lying always wrong? Sometimes justified? What about the God of Truth whom we serve and seek to emulate?

Chat Session

NOTE: This is the transcript of a chat session. You must read it from top to bottom. So scroll down right now to the very bottom of the document and read UP. :-)

Statistics: Separate responses: about 186
Time: 6:26 to 7:21 pm, 55 minutes
Participants: about 20
Participation: nearly all participated at least once

End of Chat

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 7:21 pm MST
I need to make an exit. I have really enjoyed this even tho' I mostly listened. Good Night and God bless each and everyone who is studying Joshua.

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 7:21 pm MST
As by Jesus' example the situation isn't always written in stone i.e. the woman who committed adultery and the people who wanted to stone her and how He handled that group. Thanks Dr Ralph,I really feel that some pictures are becoming clearer for me.

Martha Ragan, Huntsville, Alabama , 9/28/98 7:21 pm MST
Thanks Pastor Ralph, I have really enjoyed this discussion and also enjoy the Bible Study. Thank you for your leadership!!! God Bless you all and Good night!!!

Mike Sparks, Cherokee, Iowa , 9/28/98 7:21 pm MST
I don't mean excuses for being out late but rather how a new hair doo looks or a new dress that just dosen't look good but she really loves it.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:20 pm MST
Thank you Dr Wilson I have enjoyed and good night all GOD BLESS

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 7:20 pm MST
Dr. Ralph, thankyou for this opportunity. Thought you might enjoy knowing we are sharing Joshua with a group at our church. The many comments are so useful.

Jeannie Salazar, Port Orchard, WA , 9/28/98 7:20 pm MST
Jeannie Salazar, Port Orchard, WA entered the room
bonita b nash tn , 9/28/98 7:20 pm MST
bonita b nash tn entered the room
Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 7:19 pm MST
Mike, my wife and I have powerful relationship built on honest trust and truth. I can tell her the honest answer to what she asks if done in love and with respect for her individuality.

Rieta Anderson, Churchill, Victoria, Australia , 9/28/98 7:19 pm MST
Sometimes I wonder if deep down we always want to hear the truth especially if we know that the answer may cause us great anguish so we avoid asking the question in the first place.

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 7:19 pm MST
Mike, my wife and I have powerful relationship built on honest trust and truth. I can tell her the honest answer to what she asks if done in love and with respect for her individuality.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 7:19 pm MST
Leah, I agree with you.

Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. , 9/28/98 7:18 pm MST
Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. logged off.
Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 7:18 pm MST
People have been under the misconception that to protect feelings, things of that nature we need to tell "little white lies" there is a difference in telling a "lie" to protect someones life and to spare somone feelings of a moment.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 7:18 pm MST
Have we covered this sufficiently for tonight? Feel free to stick around and discuss this or anything else informally. If you want to chat a bit more privately with someone, feel free to use Room B also.

Lord, thank you for being with us and helping us tonight. Give us your wisdom and grace in the sticky situations we find ourselves. Help us to be people of truth and integrity. And when we are called on to lie for a higher good, make that VERY clear to us. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. , 9/28/98 7:16 pm MST
Mike, I just can't agree. When it comes to marriage especially the truth is so necessary. It is so liberating to be in relationship with someone I can trust to tell me the truth, even when it might be easier for all of us if they lied.

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 7:16 pm MST
This is the first chat that I have ever been able to get anything from. It is so easy to follow the conversation and also easy to state your ideas. Thanks

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 7:16 pm MST
Laura my emial is kirbyja@surpressed.com Write me.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:15 pm MST
good night Laura

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 7:14 pm MST
Good night Laura

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:14 pm MST
GOD GOD GOD

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 7:14 pm MST
I have enjoyed the chat tonight. I am very new at this and am learning so much each day with this study. Thanks for all of the input and thank you Pastor Ralph for your direction. I have to go put the little ones to bed! Good night all. God bless all.

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 7:14 pm MST
I tend to agree with Leah. I feel Rahab stood in awe of the true God compared to those of her own land. She knew He was truly God.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 7:14 pm MST
But Mike. Isn't it time to give up fibbing? Isn't that what Jesus calls us to?

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:14 pm MST
we pray in the a m for the day and ask Gog for his leadership and guidance, shouldnt we sorta let Jesus stand in front of us and do the leading for the day

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:13 pm MST
we pray in the a m for the day and ask Gog for his leadership and guidance, shouldnt we sorta let Jesus stand in front of us and do the leading for the day

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 7:13 pm MST
Reita, great way to say it.

Mike Sparks, Cherokee, Iowa , 9/28/98 7:13 pm MST
You have to fib to you're spouce and co-workers every conce in a while or you will go through life alone.

Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. , 9/28/98 7:13 pm MST
In covenant, the situation is altogether different than what Rahab was dealing with. In the marriage relationship, there has to be honesty. This is THE one person on the earth we've really made a commitment to. If the commitment is to last, there has to be trust. Whatever one thinks of Mrs. Clinton, You can't help but feel some of her betrayal in all this thats been going on, & so publicly.

Jeannie Salazar, Port Orchard, WA , 9/28/98 7:12 pm MST
Jeannie Salazar, Port Orchard, WA entered the room
Rieta Anderson, Churchill, Victoria, Australia , 9/28/98 7:12 pm MST
Lying to our spouses would not be acceptable.Sometimes rather than hurting our spouse if they have asked a question which you know would bring them much pain I have redirected the coversation but if he wants to know anyway then the truth needs to be told with love and gentleness.

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 7:12 pm MST
I believe each situation calls for a different action. I don't believe Jesus would ever lie, but I'm not Jesus. I have lied to protect people, especially their feelings. I would have to be truthful with my spouse even if I hurt him but be careful how I said it.

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 7:11 pm MST
When she discussed the awesomeness of their God, it was with fear and respect, I don't think she was trying him out.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 7:10 pm MST
Mike, I think she was more than trying out this God. She put her life on the line for Him.

Martha Ragan, Huntsville, Alabama , 9/28/98 7:09 pm MST
I'm with you Natalie. It is hard for me to put into words what I would like. But lying is wrong. Are we not to trust God to make things work to good if we do right and do not lie?

sherry rose new ulm,minnesota usa , 9/28/98 7:09 pm MST
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Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 7:09 pm MST
Of course that is wrong to lie to your spouse. I am sure that amny justify lying to their spouse.

Mike Sparks, Cherokee, Iowa , 9/28/98 7:09 pm MST
Wasn't Rahab just trying out this new Hebrew God to see if it was any better than the others on the mantel?

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 7:08 pm MST
I don't think a marriage can last if there isn't complete honesty between the marriage partners.

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 7:07 pm MST
Natalie try putting your thoughts into words, I'm definitely no scholar but I'm enjoying communicating with other in our study! Thanks Pastor Ralph for the opportunity, it's truly has been a blessing to me!

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 7:07 pm MST
Our heart can be made perfect in His love, but sometimes the decisions we make under pressure and the ways we choose to carry them out are far less than the best...

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 7:07 pm MST
Maybe I am way off. I thought God would want us to save the lives of others. To stand up for our brothers and others!! Lying is wrong! but God knows .our intentions.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:07 pm MST
Natalie Wright you are blessed tho!!!! right and you bless us by being here

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:07 pm MST
Natalie Wright you are blessed tho!!!! right and you bless us by being here

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 7:06 pm MST
I believe God can use any situation good or bad even if sin is involved. We cannot be perfect. I punish my children for lying. I want to be able to trust them.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 7:06 pm MST
One area I'd like to explore is this idea of covenant relationship. We MUST tell the truth to one another because we are one body, it says in Ephesians.

I think President Clinton's problem is that he lied to the American people with whom he needed to keep faith. That wasn't to an enemy, but to keep him out of trouble.

What about lying to our spouses to keep ourselves out of trouble?

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 7:05 pm MST
I'm afraid my two cents worth wouldn't even be worth that much. I love to read others' comments but I am not very good at saying what I think. I really am enjoying our bible study, Thank you Dr. Wilson.

Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 7:05 pm MST
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Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 7:05 pm MST
I have truly enjoyed this conversation, but I too must leave. God Bless everyone.

Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 7:04 pm MST
Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia logged off.
Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 7:04 pm MST
It's bedtime on the east coast for my little one. Great comments!! Gotta go! God bless you all.

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 7:03 pm MST
Matthew Cuzma has a very interesting comment on the study email.

Karen sproles Martinsville, In , 9/28/98 7:03 pm MST
It has been very thought provoking. thanks bye

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 7:03 pm MST
We've had some great comments, but several of you haven't put in your two cents worth. Why don't you jump in now, since several folks are leaving for dinner.

Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. , 9/28/98 7:03 pm MST
One of the principles that has helped me so much is that which is 'less that perfect' on our part, is so often taken by God & turned around for good. Eg. What Joseph's brothers meant for evil, God turned for good, for the saving of many. Gen. 50

CAROL WILKINSON GLEN ST. MARY, FLORIDA , 9/28/98 7:02 pm MST
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Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 7:02 pm MST
Sometimes it's great to think that God uses us, in our bumbling ways, to bring about a greater good. We may not do things exactly according to His plan, but when we try to walk in His will, He even makes good our midguided efforts.

CAROL WILKINSON GLEN ST. MARY, FLORIDA , 9/28/98 7:02 pm MST
bye all, I too have to go, I enjoyed it!

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 7:02 pm MST
I have to go to dinner now. Get back to us Dr. Ralph about this chat. God bless you all.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:01 pm MST
WEare not JESUS but JESUS is our example

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:01 pm MST
WEare not JESUS but JESUS is our example

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:01 pm MST
WEare not JESUS but JESUS is our example

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 7:01 pm MST
WEare not JESUS but JESUS is our example

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 7:01 pm MST
Remember he told them that He would bless those who blessed His people.

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 7:01 pm MST
Bye

Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA , 9/28/98 7:00 pm MST
Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA logged off.
Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 7:00 pm MST
I don't think Rahab was truly wrong,I think what she did was use brains over brawn to achieve the best end results.

Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA , 9/28/98 7:00 pm MST
God bless everyone...enjoyed your comments...gotta go

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 7:00 pm MST
I have to agree.

Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:59 pm MST
What do you think about trespassing at an abortion clinic to talk to someone about choosing life instead of an abortion?

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:59 pm MST
I think there are many times that we're not sure of the right thing to do. We pray and ask God for help. And then trust Him to help us when push comes to shove. Thank God that he forgives us our innocent and not-so-innocent sins.

I think Rahab did the right thing perhaps in the wrong way, but God knew her heart of faith, and nothing is said in judgment about the less-than-perfect means.

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 6:59 pm MST
Jesus is definitely are example

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 6:58 pm MST

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 6:58 pm MST
Good thought Nancy

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 6:58 pm MST
WEare not JESUS but JESUS is our example

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:58 pm MST
What about the verse that says about laying your life down for your brother? That's what the people were doing to hide the jewish people. They were risking their lives. To tell the truth would kill them all.
God only knows.

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 6:58 pm MST
As I said before, we do what is necessary,l God's will is for you to take care of His child in your keep.

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 6:58 pm MST
Nancy I was just thinking about that, too.

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 6:57 pm MST
amen, Nancy

Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:57 pm MST
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Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 6:57 pm MST
amen, Nancy

CAROL WILKINSON GLEN ST. MARY, FLORIDA , 9/28/98 6:56 pm MST
I agree Leah I believe they were guided by the Lord

Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 6:56 pm MST
Jesus did not always answer a question directly. When asked who he was, he'd turn the question to who do you say I am. He often would answer in parables that none believers failed to comprehend. Isn't Jesus to be our example?

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:56 pm MST
Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan has a priest and a Levite walking on the other side of the road so they don't risk ritual impurity by touching what might be a dead man. But the neighbor to the man was the Samaritan. He "risked his salvation" if you will, to do the will of God, and Jesus honored him for it.

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:55 pm MST
I know I have to keep my mind focused on the Lord and trying to be obedient to Him. But many times I fail. I ask for forgiveness and persevere. If I let it all get to me. the easy way woud be to listen to Satan and belive I will go to hell because I broke a commandment.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 6:55 pm MST
right JO Ann

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 6:55 pm MST
Sometimes we just have to do what is necessary and do what we know to be God's will. I'm sure that the people who were lying to protect innocent lives went to the Lord in prayer to obtain His most excellent guidance.

Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:55 pm MST
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Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:54 pm MST
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Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. , 9/28/98 6:54 pm MST
Aren't we talking about what we'd do in REAL life? I already know that if a rapist was in my home & wanted to know whether or not there was anyone else home I'd lie more convincingly than I ever have in my life. I'd never reveal that I've a beautiful daughter asleep in the other room. I'd have to put myself at the mercy of God as opposed to putting her at the mercy of a criminal.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:54 pm MST
When we discuss this, it become clear that it isn't clear at all. Rahab made a split-second decision based on her sinful life pattern. It saved the spies, and was based on faith. But there's no easy answer here. The Bible is very clear: we shouldn't lie, we serve the God of Truth!

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:54 pm MST
Once saved you are saved!!! Praise God!of course that dosen't excuse sinning but someone said that I wouldn't want to chance my salvation.

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 6:53 pm MST
for Mike, DUCK

Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:53 pm MST
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Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:53 pm MST
Sorry i hit the wrong button.. I was chuckling over Mike's dilemma. :)

Rieta Anderson, Churchill, Victoria, Australia , 9/28/98 6:53 pm MST
Rieta Anderson, Churchill, Victoria, Australia entered the room
Karen sproles Martinsville, In , 9/28/98 6:53 pm MST
the more we study, the more we understand what the Lord would have us to do, it sort of becomes second nature. Our faith grows and so does our knowledge. I know we can't be perfect, but I believe we can know God's will. When he says do not lie then I think He means it!

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:53 pm MST
I mean that each situation is different. We take the Word and use it as a guideline that we try to follow. Sometimes a situation changes that.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:52 pm MST
Laura is asking about war. When you are at war, or there is an enemy seeking to do wrong, are you obligated to tell him the truth? Our greater covenant obiligation is to our families and country.

Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:52 pm MST
Elwood..you know, that has been the question of the century I think "Is it okay to take a life to save a life" that's another whole chat room discussion..abortion to save a mothers life and so on... This is really a very,very difficult answer to give and when we are confronted with such questions there is only one place to look for the answer. "Jesus Christ and his word.

Mike Sparks, Cherokee, Iowa , 9/28/98 6:51 pm MST
What about when you're wife asks how she looks? Is it better to tell a little lie or duck really fast?

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 6:51 pm MST
Susan, is there a higher moral and ethical situation involved in the decision?

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:51 pm MST
I mean so many ways we sin.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:51 pm MST
While we learn a lot from example of Bible people, our life should be guided by the Instructional parts of the Scripture, not what people did. Bible people sometimes did some bad things.

Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:51 pm MST
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Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
Elwood..you know, that has been the question of the century I think "Is it okay to take a life to save a life" that's another whole chat room discussion..abortion to save a mothers life and so on... This is really a very,very difficult answer to give and when we are confronted with such questions there is only one place to look for the answer. "Jesus Christ and his word.

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
If our God was just truth, then none of is would have a 2nd chance. Don't forget we are all sinners. So how do we justify lying as bad when there are so many ways we lie. Thank GOd we are covered by the blood and His grace.

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
Seems to me the idea of a split decision that will bring about righteousness the most would also apply to Corrie's situation...

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
What about wars? There is a lot of innocent life lost in war

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
arent all livs worth saving??? thats a hard question to answer

Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
I believe that if you pray and trust God, He will show you what you are to do.

bonita b. nash tn. , 9/28/98 6:50 pm MST
hi Jo-ann, I have a sister in Exton Pa.

Karen sproles Martinsville, In , 9/28/98 6:49 pm MST
It is easy to say what we would do, but who really knows in the situation what you might do, that's why I think it's so important to make God's Word the guide for everything you do.

Jo-Ann Mlakar, Tionesta, PA. , 9/28/98 6:49 pm MST
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Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:48 pm MST
Elwood's law officer "take a life to save a life" example is a good one. There you have to choose the decision that will bring about righteousness the most -- and you have a split second to make the decision.

Marian Conner Tuscola, Illinois , 9/28/98 6:48 pm MST
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Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:48 pm MST
Alice it's Paige Smallwood Weiss

bonita b. nash tn. , 9/28/98 6:48 pm MST
I guess it is easy to think ok no lying however would it change when we have to make the decision

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 6:47 pm MST
Who is your friend?

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 6:47 pm MST
Question: As a law officer choice had to be made to take a life to save a life..Bible says "thou shalt not kill"..what's the difference between this and telling a falsehood to save a Life?

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:47 pm MST
I am not talking about lying to take the responsibility off a mature adult who needs to suffer the consequences of their action. To save them when they are innocent. The Jewish people were marked just for who they were.

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
Hi Alice!! I have a friend that lives in Paris, texas

Leah Malby, Cleveland Ohio , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
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Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
Thank you, I forgot to put where I'm from.. Peoria, IL

Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
I agree Susan, we would do anything that we could to protect the lives of those we love.

Karen sproles Martinsville, In , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
I believe a sin is a sin and we have to make tough decisions everyday. Do we live for Jesus and follow his example in everything we do, or do we make exceptions? What is our guide? We must obey God's word. I don't want to take any chances with my salvation. What could be worth that?

bonita b. nash tn. , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
so is the lying okay if the reason is justified

CAROL WILKINSON GLEN ST. MARY, FLORIDA , 9/28/98 6:46 pm MST
I agree Susan, I would hope if I were in that situation I would rely on God's word to guide me

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:45 pm MST
This "lesser of two evils" approach is used in a ethics approach called "Situational Ethics," i.e. what is right in one situation may be wrong in another. The danger of situational ethics is that instead of living by absolutes such as Don't lie, we find excuses to do what our "flesh" desires to do to stay out of trouble.

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:45 pm MST
I think it easy to say we wouldn't lie . But we weren't there. We can't say we wouldn't do the same if in the situation. They were not lying to cause the destrucion of someone, they were trying to save a life. Any parent would lie if it could save the life of their child.

What about mercy?

Alice, Paris, Texas , 9/28/98 6:45 pm MST
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Marian Conner Tuscola, Illinois , 9/28/98 6:44 pm MST
HI Susan. I am from Tuscola, Illinois. You have had some great input to the study.

Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 6:44 pm MST
I do not believe we should knowing sin. Especially if we do it and think "well God will forgive me if I ask" Didn't Jacob do that with his father?

Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:43 pm MST
Hi I made it didn't know if I would get home in time. I don't know what I would do to be honest. But the following would guide me I hope.Proverbs 6:16
There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: 17haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

Marian Conner Tuscola, Illinois , 9/28/98 6:43 pm MST
Karen, I never thought about it that way, but you are right.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:43 pm MST
Example: The lesser of two evils is (1) to lie to prevent (2) murder of Jews.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 6:42 pm MST
O K i have a question
If I said I walking across the street but dropped dead before I got there would that be a lie

Karen sproles Martinsville, In , 9/28/98 6:41 pm MST
I don't think it's right to lie. You see so many examples of brave people in the bible who chose the truth and they were honored and protected by God and there were those who did not survive, but they knew where they would spend eternity and I think we need to always keep our minds on heavenly things

Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:41 pm MST
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Marian Conner Tuscola, Illinois , 9/28/98 6:41 pm MST
I guess that you have to weigh the consequences of the situation. I think that if you are trying to save someone, then God will forgive you if you ask Him.

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:41 pm MST

Peter denied Jesus. It wasn't right. But Jesus knew Peter's heart. We know we will stand in judgement someday. God gives us choice and sometimes we make the wrong choices.

bonita b. nash tn. , 9/28/98 6:41 pm MST
ok so what is the real answer
are we not having enough faith in the Master

Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA , 9/28/98 6:41 pm MST
Dr. Ralph, give us an example.

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 6:40 pm MST
Sorry, I forgot to put my home state. It is Richland, IN

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 6:40 pm MST
Sorry, I forgot to put my home state.

Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 6:40 pm MST
If we tell the truth and the Jews, in this case, are discovered and killed who is glorified? But are we responsible for the actions of others? We must trust God and act the way he would have us act.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:40 pm MST
Is there such a thing as "the lesser of two evils"? Are you ever faced with that in your lives?

Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 6:39 pm MST
I guess, in a situation like this, you have to determine what your priorities are. I know I would live to save these people's lives but I would also have asked for God's forgiveness. The Catch-22 about this is that this sinning/forgiveness thing is that it could establish a bad pattern.

Lorene Pinkerton Huntsville al.usa , 9/28/98 6:39 pm MST
Iagree with bonita

Marian Conner Tuscola, Illinois , 9/28/98 6:39 pm MST
Hi Everybody--I just want to say that I am really enjoying this study.

Natalie Wright , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
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CAROL WILKINSON GLEN ST. MARY, FLORIDA , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
I guess maybe what it comes down to is perhaps our faith isn't great enough to believe God can take care of everything without our "trying" to help Him.

Susan C Turner , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
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bonita b. nash tn. , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
hello saints
I would save the people
then ask for forgiveness

Marian Conner Tuscola, Illinois , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
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Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
I think it is a good thing that God judges our hearts and motives and not us.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:38 pm MST
I pulled out my copy of Corrie ten Boom's "The Hiding Place" this afternoon. What a wonderful book! If you haven't read it, you can purchase it at a discount at http://www.joyfulheart.com/books/tenboom.htm

In Chapter 9, "The Raid," Corrie, a young Dutch spinster, living in Haarlem, Holland in 1943, has gone to bed with a fever, after reports of someone informing on their activities to hide Jews. She awakes with a start, hearing noises, and just gets the door to the secret room hiding the Jews shut in time before a Nazi Gestapo agent opens the door to her bedroom:

"Get up! Get dressed!"

As I crawled out from under the covers, the man took a slip of paper from his pocket and consulted it. "So you're the ring leader!" He looked at me with new interest. "Tell me now, where are you hiding the Jews?"

"I don't know what you're talking about."

The man laughed. "And you don't know anything about an underground ring, either. We'll see about that!" ....

Kapteyn seized me by the elbow and shoved me ahead of him down the remaining five steps and into the rear of the shop. Another soldier in uniform stood guard just inside this door. Kapteyn prodded me through to the front room and pushed me against the wall.

"Where are the Jews?"

"There aren't any Jews here."

The man struck me hard across the face.

"Where do you hide the ration cards?"

"I don't know what you're --------"

Kapteyn hit me again. I staggered up against the astronomical clock. Before I could recover he slapped me again, then again, and again, stinging blows that jerked my head backward.

"Where are the Jews?"

Another blow.

"Where is your secret room?"

I tasted blood in my mouth. My head spun, my ears rang--I was losing consciousness. "Lord Jesus," I cried out, "protect me!"

Kapteyn's hand stopped in midair.

"If you say that name again I'll kill you!"

But instead his arm slowly dropped to his side. "If you won't talk, that skinny one will...."

Martha Ragan, Huntsville, Alabama , 9/28/98 6:37 pm MST
Would Jesus have lied? We are to have his attitude. W

Mike Sparks, Cherokee, Iowa , 9/28/98 6:37 pm MST
I think if you lie to glorify the Lord the the ways out weight the means. Some time you have forsake mans laws to live by Gods laws.

bonita b. nash tn. , 9/28/98 6:37 pm MST
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Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:37 pm MST
This is one of those questions that has me stumped. I know that I would lie to save those people. But yet I know that is wrong!?!!

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:37 pm MST
Lying is lying, or hiding the truth. God still knows the bottom line intentions of our heart.

Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 6:36 pm MST
It does seem rather hypocritical to lie and glorifiy God at the same time.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:34 pm MST
One of my un-favorite Bible characters is Sampson. He was empowered by the Holy Spirit, but the things he did, he did for the most selfish and vengeful and sinful reasons. God worked through him, but people couldn't see God's character in him. That's what's at issue here, I think. If we lie to our enemies, how is God glorified in our speaking?

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL , 9/28/98 6:34 pm MST
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Karen sproles Martinsville, In , 9/28/98 6:34 pm MST
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Nancy Corneil, Midland, MI , 9/28/98 6:33 pm MST
I believe God wants us to tell the truth. But there are also qualifications. You don't need to always say what's on your mind. Your motivation behind what you say also must be taken into account. Is not answering lying. Rather than lying, perhaps not saying anything at all in alright.

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:33 pm MST
Soemtimes grace is more important than truth.

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:33 pm MST
I agree with Susan. how can saving a life be wrong??

CAROL WILKINSON GLEN ST. MARY, FLORIDA , 9/28/98 6:32 pm MST
I do believe lying is always wrong, however doesn't it say in the bible we ought to obey
God rather than man? they were saving lives.

Cathy Minnick, Hermiston, OR USA , 9/28/98 6:32 pm MST
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Diane, Cedar Park, TX , 9/28/98 6:32 pm MST
Father God, please help us to understand your Word and your thoughts in this study tonight. Thank you for YOUR SON, Jesus, who died on the cross for us and lives again so that we might have eternal Life. In Jesus' name

Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 6:32 pm MST
While I don't think there's many gray areas as far as sin is concerned, I just don't see how it could be sinful to lie in this given situation.

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:31 pm MST
This is a confusing format but I will keep trying

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:31 pm MST
Do you agree with Susan? Is there another side to it?

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:31 pm MST
Hi all!!

Susan Corona CA , 9/28/98 6:30 pm MST
I feel that they had to do what what right to them. Saving a life was more important than lying to murderers.

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:30 pm MST
Hi Laura, and everyone else. BTW, you can "View Participants" to see who's in the room.

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL. , 9/28/98 6:30 pm MST

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:29 pm MST
Hi all!!

Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:29 pm MST
Somebody start if off, please.

Laura Holder Mitchell Texas , 9/28/98 6:29 pm MST
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Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:28 pm MST
Question for Chat Room ONLY: During World War II some families in
Holland hid Jews in their homes to save them from the Nazis. If a
Nazi soldier came to the door and asked, "Are you harboring Jews
in this house?" what should they say? Is lying always wrong?
Sometimes justified? What about the God of Truth whom we serve and
seek to emulate?

Let's discuss it.

Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL. , 9/28/98 6:28 pm MST
Elwood C. O'Dell, Bartow, FL. logged off.
Nancy Mullins, Stephens City, Virginia , 9/28/98 6:28 pm MST
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Dr. Ralph F. Wilson, Rocklin, California , 9/28/98 6:26 pm MST
Were going to begin by prayer. The subject we're talking about is far beyond our ability to really understand completely. Why don't each of you pray a brief prayer for us.

Lord Jesus. Please guide us tonight by your Holy Spirit as we discuss.

Beginning of Chat

Chat Session on Rahab's Lie September 28,1998 6:30-7:30 pm MDT

Question

Chat Session

Chat Session on Rahab's Lie
September 28,1998
6:30-7:30 pm MDT